Wednesday, August 20, 2014

Info on Our Greatest Enemy

It seems the beans have spilled on Grey Knights.

Initially it looks like Grey Knights lost a bit in the straight up damage department, but gained quite a bit in the anti-psyker department.  This doesn't seem to be an immediate upgrade or a nerf, but we shall see how things turn out.  It also seems like most of the anti-daemon weaponry (other than the nemesis force weapons) comes from their relics.

Things I am excited about:
No more +1 invuln for force swords.
No more Mind Strike Missiles.
No more rad or psychotrope grenades.

I do expect to see more objective secured land raiders.

Edit: I AM HIJACKING ANDREW'S POST!

Having played Blackmoor's Grey Knights a jillion times this edition, Ima sound off on this. In the current book, I am scared of Draigo, Storm Ravens and Dreadknights.

Now I am scared of Draigo even more, psyk-out grenades and Dreadknights.

Draigo got better with an AP2 weapon and the ability to get to S9 vs. anything with Hammerhand. He got worse in that he's only T4 and can't take Divination anymore, but on balance, he's better against most armies. He won't miss Precognition too much since he'll always have FNP. Oh, and he got Gate of Infinity automatically, so he and Tigurius will be powering grav stars for the next couple years at least. Just swell...

Storm Ravens are plain 'ol Storm Ravens, which sucks because I can't kill them, but now I can field psykers on foot without them getting nuked.

But hold the phone, psyk-out grenades can do the same thing, so Interceptors can shunt right up into your business and hand you a Perils check lickety shit. Finish your Screamerstar's move within 14" of a Strike Squad at your peril.

Brother Captain Stern would scare me with his 12" ring of Banishment if he were rocking more than a force sword, but no one will ever take him.

I don't remember Paladins having FNP before, because it cost 75 points to get it. Now it costs 20, so they will. Ugh... They are better at killing Soul Grinders as Daemonbane gives them rerolls to pen now. Those were like the only thing Allan didn't like fighting.

Dreadknights are bad news. 225 points for a jump MC with a torrent flamer, a force gun that's got 12 shots and a MC greatsword that rerolls to pen against Grinders. Plus it has Sanctuary, which totally sucks. 4++ save and dangerous terrain within 12". Charging it with Daemonettes gets you flamed and striking at I1 and only half your rends get through. Soul Grinders get punked out if they don't get immobilized. Screamers get doubled out before swinging. All MC's are dead if they fight it, and it can ID them if they fail a save from the psilencer. This thing is a nightmare, and they will be very common.

I can't say I'm happy about this. Grey Knights just got a lot tougher. Especially since on top of all the improvements, things are cheaper, so there will be more of them. The only nerf I see is psycannons going to salvo 2/4 which hurts Strike Squads, Purifiers and Interceptors. However, since those units can now take S7 Halberds and melta bombs, I'd say they're better on balance.

It's a very solid book.

What are your thoughts?


57 comments:

  1. The relic of 2++ save against khorne daemons is a bit of a slap in the face. Especially as theres nothing stopping it being combined with a priest for a re-roll. Poor khorne.

    Also instant death psilencers could be a threat to multiple wound stuff. Especially the dreadknight version if it has the extra strength.

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    1. The more and more I look at the new grey knights the more I think that the vast majority of their warp charges are going to turning on force. You need 2-3 dice to get it off reliably and now there is no more psychic pilot on most vehicles, so they are going to have fewer warp charges to go round.

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    2. Where would the dreadknight version get extra strength? They removed psybolt.

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    3. Wishful thinking- Extra shots rather. Not that scary, but the dresdknight on the whole is a bit of a character/monster killling badass.

      Agree that a lot of warp charge will be needed to get the force off when needed, but should be worth it.

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  2. Additional things I am excited about:
    No more 2++ warding stave
    No more psybolt ammunition

    It does seem as if the army is almost entirely based around using their Force weapons at least against daemons. Which is nice for me because my friend who plays GK literally never remembers to activate the ones that he should. It's also nice that psychic pilot is gone on all their vehicles so their stupid Rhinos/Razorbacks don't generate warp dice and then lower the invul on all my daemons. This means a lot less dice for them and they won't be able to put hammerhand and force up on literally every single unit while still weakening whatever daemons they want. All in all I'm not too concerned about facing this army anymore. Sure things like termies and dreadknights got cheaper so they can field more stuff but I'm not concerned about that. It was all the cheesy shit like 2++ invuls, mindstrike missiles, and their grenades that really turned games and made it a bear to play against them.

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    1. I can always deny force with my 20+ warp dice LOL

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    2. Yep. Generally I don't put myself in a position where a lot of force weapons will matter so I'll let him get off the couple that I don't care about and throw every last dispel dice at the force activate that would instadeath my GD or other important squad. It's usually enough.

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    3. pretty much the same goes for banishment as well and/or hammerhand...

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  3. In order to get ObSec Land Raiders the GK player would have to take a CAD which would mean no GK detachment for turn 1 deep strike. So it depends on what the player wants.

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    1. I couldn't tell but are terminators not troops anymore? Terminators can get land raiders as dedicated transports.

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    2. Yes they are. But Objective Secured is a command benefit for "Combined Arms Detachments" and "Allied Detachments" from the BRB. It's not innate to anyone who takes a battleforged army. So if the GK player takes a Nemesis detachment from their codex they get the command benefits listed which are re-roll warlord traits and deep strike reserves can roll on turn 1. No ObSec.

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    3. Well observed. It's a pretty common misconception really.

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  4. Things that will kill use Instant dead on psylencers and reroll to wound on all CC weapons.

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  5. the biggest joke is that GKS termintators cost 33 points and all over internet GKS players cry how nerfed GK terminators are.

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    1. And how often do you see Tactical Space Marine Terminator squads (Power Fist & Storm Bolter armed) being fielded?

      That's right, virtually never.

      Why is that?

      Because the 40K battlefields are riddled with Plasma weapons, Melta guns, Grav guns, and now (essentially) rending Shuriken weaponry.

      2+ saves are quaint and hardly very resistant against the majority of firepower encountered since 5th edition.

      With no access to 3++ Storm Shields and now no 4++ save on Terminators due to Force Swords the Grey Knight Terminator squads are going to need to cower inside of their Land Raiders until they can charge.

      With Inquistorial henchmen squads removed from their codex as well they're going to have to rely on allied cheap infantry to bubble wrap those Land Raiders or envelope them under allied Dark Angel Powerfield Generators.

      THOSE are the reasons GK players are lamenting that they've been nerfed, because they HAVE been seriously hamstrung by these alterations.

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    2. I just don't see how having the whole book improved and losing access to Coteaz and his band of weenies constitutes a hamstringing. I guarantee you Blackmoor will be beating face with this new army, especially since only one troop choice is required in a CAD.

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    3. Why do you not see tactical terminators? Because they aren't troops, don't usually benefit from chapter tactics (unlike GK) and a similarly equipped squad costs 50 more points then the GK variety (and that is sans hammerhand or the grenades or GK chapter tactics). Just for starters.

      The rest of your slippery slope argument for spending 500 points on landraiders and bubble wrap is also 'quaint'. Instead, why not take 3 dreadknights. Or more terminators. Or more of your own AP2 slingers.

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    4. Actually, I was replying to Anon's comment about why GK players are reacting to changes in GK Terms as a nerf, not the codex as a whole.

      It seems like a handful of units got some very nice power boosts: Draigo, Dreadknights (who can field 2 of the SAME ranged guns now, nice!), Paladins.

      Other units were changed so majorly as to be unattractive in comparison: Psycannons as salvo type make Purgation squads useless, Dreadnoughts loss of Psybolts make them a poor substitute for more mobile & versatile Dreadknights.

      Perhaps the new codex isn't less powerful? That remains to be seen. However, there certainly seem to be fewer units worth contemplating and therefore fewer competitive builds.

      BTW, I'm aware of the GK special detachment but how can they only field one Troop unit in a CAD? Their detachment doesn't confer ObSec on their Troops.

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    5. My mistake. I only saw the force org in the photo, not what it referred to.

      I do agree that it's pretty much Draigo/Pallies, Interceptors, Storm Ravens and Dreadknights with min Strikes, but it's certainly strong.

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    6. where can we follow blackmoor? I just play daemons and GKs and need all the help i can get

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    7. He is on the 11th Company podcast as a panelist. I am sure once they get around to talking the GK release, he will be the big voice on the subject. However, the tapings are not always regular, and the episodes sometimes go up weeks after they were recorded, so it may be awhile.

      He has a sporadically updated blog at http://blackmoors40k.blogspot.com/.

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    8. I want to write a long blog post on the subject but right now I am pressed for time. I am flying out to the Nova Open next week and I think I will use that 5 hour plane ride to write up my thoughts. I will post it on the 11th Co blog: http://11thcompany.blogspot.com/

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  6. Thanks for taking over the thread (I figured you would). I haven't played against Grey Knights in quite some time.

    Is it my imagination or does it look like GK's are going to have trouble taking vehicles out at range? They can get lascannons on razorbacks, but thats about it. I expect to see some AM or IK allies.

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    1. Pallies with psycannons can down most vehicles at range, but the army is so robust in assault, and the teleporting, FNP Draigowing supported by Interceptors and Storm Ravens so quick that it's not a major weakness.

      Just ally with AM, bring a TC with the armorbane gun, toss a Priest in with the Pallies and you'll have some good ranged AT to go with your cheese.

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    2. There are 2 things that GKs always struggle with:
      #1, Killing anything with a 2+ save.
      #2. Killing vehicles.

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  7. The real enemy is Eldar. I hate them. Hate.

    I propose a 10-part series on "How to Crush the Eldar with CSM and/or Daemons."

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    1. Step 1: Find someone else to play against
      Step 2: ????
      Step 3: Profit

      ;-)

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    2. I have my fingers doubly crossed that the next imperial armour book will bring us traitor relic sicaran battle tanks. That would be so nice. Ignoring Jink is boss.

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    3. I play Eldar, I also play Daemons. I can tell you from experience that it is easy to beat Eldar with Daemons. The answer is fleshhounds, screamers, fleshhounds, lots of daemonettes, fleshhounds, a GD or 2, Belakor, and did I mention fleshounds?

      I have yet to win as Eldar vs lists list this, or lose against Eldar using lists like this. Wave Serpents just die to assault and cannot escape fleshhounds. WraithKnights dont do so well vs GDs, deamonettes or Belakor

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    4. Pretty much the long and short of it, though I haven't played Eldar in 7th yet.

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  8. Lol our units now are laughable. How scary is a bloodthirster now that it can get 1 shotted from a distance. Our bloodcrushers are even more useless against things. Common im not looking for auto wins by any means, but for beings that are supposed to be tge terror of the galaxie why does it feel like we are made of nerf. Sorry i just feel like we ve bin getting shafted. I have 10 000pts plus in daemons and chaos spacemarines and it feels like we re being out classed at everything we are supposed to be good at.

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    1. That's not entirely true. A LOT has to happen before a bloodthirster can get one shotted from a distance.

      1) Psilencers aren't that prevalent so the only unit I expect it to be a threat on is a dreadknight.
      2) The range is only 24" so if he fails the BT will rip him to shreds next turn.
      3) That dreadknight needs to pass his psychic test
      4) that test needs to not get denied
      5) he needs to hit with his shots
      6) those shots need to wound (S4 vs T6)
      7) The BT needs to fail a save

      So if we look at a Dreadknight shunting up right next to you to shoot a psilencer in his face this is what we've got. I won't even go into psychic tests:
      12 shots at BS4 means 8 hits.
      8 hits at S4 means 1 1/3 wounds against a BT
      Armor of 3+ means .444 wounds will go through a turn

      That's a 225 point model using his once a game shunt to get right in your face and will only land .444 wounds a turn on average. Again that discounted him having to activate his force weapon which isn't realistic. If you were swooping his average wounds per turn goes down to .1111.

      And again, that is only coming from a dreadknight who is really the only one a BT would ever fear because regular psilencers are not nearly as good. Is it really all that gamebreaking that one unit in the game has a S4 instant death weapon? There are a lot of other ways we can beat GK.

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    2. If the NDK has Sanctuary and Force up, the Bloodthirster is going to die to it no matter what it does. It will swing first if charged, and probably save enough wounds with its 4++ if it charges the Thirster to one shot it on the backswing.

      Fateweaver is at huge risk if not shrouded/Grimoired as is any LOC that doesn't have similar protection. That model is one gigantic set of problems.

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    3. True. But our MCs are pretty inefficient against grey knights in their current codex as well. All it takes is a single tactical marine with a force weapon to get one wound and its all over. The way to beat GKs is through numbers, not expensive beatsticks. Everything has force but they lack numbers.

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    4. Greyknights have also gotten much cheaper as well as all their daemon popping buffs. One could field 3 dreadknights a storm raven draigo wing and any other amount of ridiculousness in an 1850 game. So 3 dreadknights with 3 psilensers and greatsword Is not only cool to see but will destroy any of my builds. The only way i see it is save us be lakor your our only hope

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    5. Yep. I'm looking at Be'lakor long and hard again.

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    6. Though don't forget, you can just try to drown GK in summoned bodies. So long as it isn't a KP game, that's still a viable plan.

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    7. It works extremely well but i hate leaving the situation up to our daemonic instability nonsense. But be lakor is minty fresh psychic shriek invicibility and the grimore He can buff guys around him while having a 2+ invUl from grimore hes a tool box and no instability

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    8. Actually, I guess NDK's can't cast both Sanctuary and Force being only ML1. Small mercies...

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    9. Another model could cast banishment Tho cause those grey knight librarians are assholes or bro captain stern could do his tom foolary next to the NDK's

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    10. @Kevin: Where does it say that a psyker cannot cast 2 powers if they're ML1? (I imagine in the psychic phase of the BRB, but I cannot find it)

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    11. I'm pretty sure as long as you have warp charges, a unit/model can cast all the spells he knows despite how many mastery levels they have. The model/unit is only limited by not being able to activate the same power or attempting to activate the same power twice.

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    12. I can't find it anywhere. Yet BAO ruled you can't do that, so I assumed it was somewhere. It's not in the NOVA FAQ.

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    13. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    14. BRB states number of spells cast depends on ML. which is the goddamn worst way to put it, since "depends" could mean "is double" or anything else, but I've been playing casts = ML since I assume that's what they meant it as. Ask your TO

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  9. Actually... I think I found something:

    Mastery Levels (page 22 of the BRB), first line reads:
    "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery level".

    That's... loosely written. I can't find anything else that restricts casting depending on Mastery levels. Hopefully that is the case, as a Daemon player I do not want those pesky ML1 GKs casting Force plus something else.

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    1. Ah, there's yer how's it goin'.

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    2. The mastery level restriction applies more to the number of powers they can generate and therefore cast. So a model with fixed powers can still cast them all, it's referring to a ML payer usually only knowing one spell.

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    3. There is a lot of debate about that wording, but most tournaments FAQ it to mean that they can only cast as many powers as there ML.

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    4. Yes I'm fairly certain that's how it should be interpreted. Fixed powers or not, I think that is the intent. It's not exactly crystal clear but given no other info, "dependent on your mastery level" probably means equal to your mastery level.

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    5. Like anon said, it specifically says that the number of powers a psyker can *use* is dependent on the mastery level. It doesn't just say the number of powers they can generate. But it should have been worded "is equal to his mastery level" and it would have been more clear. As it stands it's not readily apparent.

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    6. It's true though, because whether a Mastery Level 3 psyker has three powers or five powers, that number of powers depends on its mastery level of 3 plus whatever bonus powers it gets.

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  10. Hey kev i posted earlier on this thread about be lakor and was wondering how i can optimize his effectiveness in an army i have my own stratagies with him which envolve alot of casting on his behalf so im more worried about those failed psychic tests i bri g fateweaver for that soul purpose but then i dont really have anything that durable to carry the grimore othe than a guo. Those 3 characters alone is 1000+pts plus i need my soulgrinders and summoning units to keep the pressure up i have no problems sending be lakor into the thick of the fighting right away but unsupported or out of grimore range and hes toast. Those damn eldar and those knights really piss me off

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    1. Bring a screamer squad with a herald. The herald can grimoire be'lakor and be'lakor can return the favor by either using invis on the squad or cast shrouding so they have a 2+ cover. Makes two very hard to kill units.

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  11. Well on the one hand they got hit a little bit with less warp charges and Inquisition beeing another book now. Missing Psybolt ammo is not that much of a hit though the dreadnoughts will be nearly useless now.

    The new Dreadknights are awesome and all their anti Daemon capabilities are much better now. Imho thats retarded and likely off balance. Fuck the Fluff for Daemon hunters - Against most Armies they seem to be a little weakened but i don't see how to stand a chance against Turn 1 Deepstriking cheap strike squads that just overkill your psykers with this absolute ridiculous grenades and Banishment/sanctuary on everything thats important.

    Against other Armies i don't see to much of a balance change here.

    They are good allies for daemons though ;)

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  12. Well i think without Allies GK are not that great (except vs daemons) and to ally them if you take them as Allies that means no Draigo because hes a LoW now which also means if you want to take him you need another GK HQ.

    So byby cheap draigo coteaz fuck wing

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    1. You realize that just because you take someone as "allies" doesn't mean you have to take them as an allied detachment. You could take a CAD of Imperial Guard and then another CAD or GK Nemesis detachment of Grey Knights. At the moment you can't do that in some tournaments but I think more and more it will be allowed in the future.

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